Tell us about your community growing up. Looking back, how did it shape who you are now?

My father and his ancestors and relatives are citizens of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma, and I also am a Cherokee citizen. I did not grow up in Oklahoma, but we visited there regularly, and when I went to college, my father returned to Oklahoma to work for the U.S. Indian Health Service where he served for over 25 years. I was always aware of being Cherokee. My high school yearbook predicted my future to be teaching Equine Law (I had and rode horses) on an Indian reservation in Oklahoma. When I was in college, I wrote my senior honors thesis on an issue of Cherokee history.

Describe your journey to law school. What motivated you to enroll?

My oldest brother started law school as I started high school. We were very close and talked about having our own law practice someday. Graduating college, I considered going on in history, which I love, but decided to go to law school after I deferred for two years to work and pay off some undergraduate loans.

What was your law school experience like?

I did not care for law school and considered dropping out after my first year primarily because my grades were so bad. But after my first year I accepted an offer as a summer law clerk with a private law firm in Washington DC that did federal Indian law and that was a very good experience. I was convinced that I could practice law if I could just get the degree. I became very active in the larger Native American student association at the university where I went to law school, and the friendships, activities and events helped me stick it out to get my J.D.

Did you know about appellate work in law school? If not, when and how did it first get on your radar and why were you drawn to it?

My lawyer brother encouraged me to focus on transactional law, not litigation, but I didn’t think that corporate law was genuine to who I was or wanted to be. In law school, I really didn’t know much about litigation, civil procedure baffled me and no, I really didn’t know about appellate work. But after about a year of being an attorney I was arguing a case in a federal appeals court. I’d never been in a courtroom before. I like appellate work where it’s not jury trials with facts and evidence or witnesses and exhibits. Just me and judges and the law.

Tell us about one of your appellate cases that you found particularly meaningful.

In 1996 I petitioned the U.S. Supreme Court to take a case that I had lost in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eight Circuit. I argued the case in 1997 and lost 9-0. It was a terrific experience and if I had to do it again, I wouldn’t change a thing expect the result.

How often do you encounter Indigenous people in the appellate field? Why do you think that representation is important?

Since my practice area is federal Indian law, and I do a lot of appellate work, I encounter Indigenous people a lot. Many have been amazing mentors and examples for me. Indigenous appellate attorneys know a lot about the law and a lot about life. Both are needed for effective advocacy.

What advice would you give to a law student of color who aspires to be where you are now?

There are a lot of unmet legal needs in many communities so practicing law can offer a lot of varied opportunities. Typically, upon graduating from law school, one gives up one or more of three things: the type of law one wants to practice, the geographical location where one practices, or salary. For me it was the third thing. I chose to work in public interest law at 1/3 of the salary that I could have made in private practice. I worked hard when I started at NARF, researching, writing, and listening. I still feel as if I need to learn, I can learn, and I am learning.

What’s one thing law schools and/or the appellate bar can do to ensure our highest courts are representative of all our communities?

Embrace that inclusion / diversity in the judiciary is in the best interests of citizenry.